Henry Jackman Interview: The Falcon and The Winter Soldier

We interview The Falcon and The Winter Soldier composer Henry Jackman about his work on the Marvel TV show and his approach to the music.

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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier trades in all the MCU fanfare that has made the franchise so beloved worldwide, including the familiar and iconic score. Henry Jackman, who previously composed the music for both Captain America: Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War returned to continue the stories of the characters he helped cement in the minds of millions: Sam, Bucky, Sharon and Zemo.

Jackman spoke to Screen Rant about stepping back into the Marvel Universe, evolving old pieces, and imagining music for the new characters and situations that emerged in the miniseries.

When you’re composing something like this with so much history behind it, how do you tackle it in terms of revisiting old themes and coming up with ones for new characters and storylines?

Henry Jackman: That’s a great question. That’s sort of the essence. Once I knew I was doing this show, I think the first thing I did – because Winter Soldier wasn’t yesterday, it was several years ago, and I’ve done quite a lot of very diverse things since then. I sort of locked myself in a room and listened through to all the cues from Winter Soldier and Civil War, and made myself a little audio care package with color coding for the Zemo thriller theme, the Zemo string theme – all these different iterations of the characters’ themes.

And then I had long discussions with Kari, the director, about the new material for Flag Smashers and how to [change the themes for] Bucky. Because in Winter Soldier, Bucky is a tortured soul with a kind of metal [sound]. He’s neurologically damaged and a crazy assassin, hence the really disturbing piece of music called Winter Soldier from the original, which is all mangled sounds, dystopian and aggressive and violent, and not a very relaxing listen. But now he’s civilian Bucky, so that was a whole musical discussion about whether there’s a tiny bit of DNA we can take from the original Winter Soldier suite and straighten it out to be a more empathetic or sympathetic kind of idea.

Other appearances, for people that are really interested and have a good musical ear, you’ll hear the Civil War theme, callbacks, the Zemo thriller part, and then there’s another string theme he has with these funny little bells that go along with him. And there’s the big Civil War statement. My my favorite thematic resurrection, I guess, was the track “Louisiana Hero” that was released before all the shows were out.

Again, for people who are sufficiently interested to really get into the detail, in Winter Soldier there is actually a little Falcon motif. But because he didn’t have that much real estate in his heroic actions, because it had to be shared with so many other characters, I never got past the fanfare – and then cut. I always thought that was the beginning of something, but I had to crack on and finish that score, and not spend a week working on a separate superhero Falcon tune.

So, it was really satisfying to take that first motif and let it be the first phrase of what is now a complete superhero tune. So, when you listen to “Louisiana Hero,” that first brass tune is in fact the same as that original Falcon tune. But now it progresses, and it keeps going, and it’s surrounded. Also, the beginning of the track’s got a whole Louisiana guitar groove thing going on to try and depict Sam Wilson’s journey from where he’s coming from and where he’s going to. That’s really satisfying.

The writers on the shows are amazing in the MCU universe and how they have to take characters and evolve them. It’s a real privilege to be able to take things from 2014. In the same way, with the music, I can do a similar thing and take Sam Wilson to the sort of epic and wise place he gets to at the end of episode 6. Having come from where he came from, and trying to describe that musically, it’s a really cool thing to be able to do.

When you made Sam’s fanfare back in Winter Soldier, did you have any indication that it was leading towards him picking up the shield?

Henry Jackman: Absolutely no idea. Everyone always wants to know, “What’s the next thing in the Marvel universe?” Well, there’s no point asking me. Because trust me, I don’t even know. It’s like saying, “Can I see the Apple Car, please?” I’m sure they’ve got one somewhere.

Yeah, I had no idea. So, that’s what I mean – when it came back around, I was like, “Awesome! That means I can take that thing that was parked in the cupboard.” I always used to think it could develop into a full theme. It’s a really cool feeling. But it’s not something you can plan for and know about, because you don’t know where the MCU universe is going.

Correct me if I’m wrong, you used the same theme for John Walker’s hero moment that you did for when Bucky was going after Tony Stark at the end of Civil War. What was it about those two moments that made you use the same musical theme?

Henry Jackman: That’s a really good question. I think it’s a sort of heightened operatic clash. You get exciting action and action that’s, for want of a better word, visually gratifying and not at a climactic character moment. And then you get a sort of Clash of the Titans type action, which becomes almost operatic.

I did a very visceral theme, when Fury is getting seriously hammered in his car. That’s not like Clash of the Titans. You don’t even know what the hell’s going on, so a very visceral [moment]; the music is speaking to the heartbeat and the physical damage of the car and everything. Whereas at the end of Civil War, by the time you get Cap and Bucky versus Iron Man, it’s like Zeus versus Poseidon. At that point, it’s like, “You killed my family.” It’s not about the punches. It’s about the Titanic clash of superheroes, which at that point is like gods versus gods.

That’s why it was a more operatic style instead of being a pounding action cue. The end of Civil War started becoming very Wagnerian and operatic to highlight the very thing I’m describing. And it’s a similar beat, by the time you get that far into the Falcon and Winter Soldier show, you’ve earned the right for that clash to have echoes of the “[unstoppable force meets and immoveable object]” expression.

It starts becoming not about the physical aspect of the fight, but the immutable, unbending forces at hand that are in some epic struggle that starts to feel operatic. And that felt like an echo, because if you think about it, Civil War’s seed of conflict started with just a political disagreement on should we stay completely independent and not have any political answerability by not signing these accord documents? Or is that a bit arrogant? Maybe we do need a bit of political oversight at that point. It’s an interesting political debate.

But by the time we get to the end of movie, that interesting political debate has turned into an epic, operatic fight, not least thanks to Zemo’s manipulation and the fact that Tony Stark finds out how his his parents’ death came about. Although all these story points are different, the climactic nature of forces irretrievably butting heads [is the same]. And doing that with the music, making it more operatic, helps take the scene away from the physicality of violence. It’s a more philosophical and ethical clash; it’s just that they’re using force. Unfortunately, it’s come to that kind of a clash. But if you make the music more operatic, it hopefully elevates it into realizing the titanic nature nature of the opposing forces, as opposed to literally the punches.

Throughout the series, Sharon Carter’s intentions and motives are uncertain. How do you craft music to tease and throw the audience off her scent?

Henry Jackman: That’s a really good question. The key word there is tease: what you don’t want to do musically, in all the events of all the episodes, is start having music when she first shows up that reveals your narrative knowledge of what happens later.

So, the vocabulary for Sharon is right in that sweet spot of: when she first shows up, there’s a little bit of Three Musketeers, like she’s back on the team. But there isn’t anything musically that’s completely dependable or heroic for her, or reliable. Nor is there anything overly suggestive, like the Zemo thriller thing. If you start putting something like that over it, it’d be like, “Oh, hold on a minute.” Within three seconds of her showing up, you’d smell a rat.

So, it’s a really good question. You have to insinuate, but just end up in a musical space that neither leads too obviously down a sucker punch, where you’re overbaking that she’s a reliable part of the team, nor dropping too much musical toxicity to start to sniff any kind of wrongdoing or alternative agenda.

That kind of narrative in particular is a really tricky one musically, because often with music, you’re on a mission to be committed in some way. “Louisiana Hero” is a seriously committed piece of music. It’s not hanging around. But a film score has very different aspects, and that’s one of them, where it’s a very different thing. You’re bringing ambiguity to the table, not heroism, or darkness or epic struggle. It’s a different skill.

I just want to request if we can get a remixed Zemo, so I can put it to a meme of him dancing of his theme.

Henry Jackman: Knowing the internet, someone will do that anyway and do a better job than me.

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